tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post1058920487563683721..comments2024-03-20T18:38:31.327-05:00Comments on Havolim: Breishis: Shabbos Faxes and Phone CallsEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-61734937293465440162009-10-18T14:03:07.254-05:002009-10-18T14:03:07.254-05:00I've just looked up the מקראי קדש.
Towards the...I've just looked up the מקראי קדש.<br />Towards the end he explicitly addresses the question of Shabbos and says it's muttar lechatchila to broadcast on the radio even if this creates electric currents and Hav'ara in the far-away radio receivers where it's Shabbos: "ואין היושב בא"י מוזהר שלא לגרום מלאכה בחו"ל". He too does not address Avsha. <br /><br />He does end with מ"מ כל בעל נפש ירחיק מזה but it seems this is only because of the לפני עור or מסייע problem, as the radio listeners abroad probably do that Be'Issur. <br /><br />BTW, R. Yosef Cohen (in the footnotes there) brings a nice Ra'ya for the Chometz issue from the Sugya of חיישינן שמא שוה פרוטה במדי as compared to המקדש בחמץ משש שעות ולמעלה אינה מקודשת. If my Chometz is not Assur in the US, isn't it the same as שוה פרוטה במדי? What if I can use the Concorde to actually bring the Chometz to where it is muttar. Does it make a valid Kiddushin?Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-84191586176638926652009-10-14T17:30:34.003-05:002009-10-14T17:30:34.003-05:00Sorry about the Albeck reference. It belongs in t...Sorry about the Albeck reference. It belongs in the last post, about Sukkos and Chanuka. Unless he has something to say about time zones too.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-35995223613279137152009-10-14T16:59:18.887-05:002009-10-14T16:59:18.887-05:00For the Chometz issue, here is a list of Marey-Mek...For the Chometz issue, here is a list of Marey-Mekomos [copied from Rav SA Stern]:<br /><br />עונג יו"ט סימן לו<br />האלף לך שלמה סימן רו<br />לבושי מרדכי תנינא או"ח מז<br />חסד לאברהם ח"א לה<br />ארץ צבי סימן פג<br />מקראי קדש פסח סימן נה<br />מנחת יצחק ח"ז כה<br />אג"מ או"ח צד-צה<br />נועם כרך יז<br />הגש"פ מועדים וזמנים (מכירת חמץ א)<br /><br />two of the above were mentioned earlier here. The consensus seems to be that Me'ikar Hadin the owner place is relevant, not like the Oneg Y"TElihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-58398008906847259282009-10-14T16:53:57.783-05:002009-10-14T16:53:57.783-05:00speaking of an unfollowable flow of thought: Albec...speaking of an unfollowable flow of thought: Albeck מאן דכר שמיה?<br /><br />Did I miss something somewhere?great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-91961144329089745552009-10-14T16:07:14.663-05:002009-10-14T16:07:14.663-05:00So now you know why you liked this vort so much - ...So now you know why you liked this vort so much - שאני מינות דמשכא<br /><br />Albeck was certainly Orthodox. I think the association with Heschel does not give the right perspective here. Heschel was his student for Talmud, not Jewish though. By the way, [Hanoch] Albeck's daughter-in-law Pli'a Albeck was the sister of R. Avigdor Neventzal.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm quite sure most Yeshiva boys don't know who he is, not to mention saw his books. Yet, this specific vort has long-ago diffused to the MO yeshiva world (at least in Israel), now to Havolim, and in next generation probably to the equivalent of Rav Pinkus shmussen. <br /><br />Back to this post: I just saw in shul Rav Wosner (Shevet HaLevi 8:40) allowing sending non-commercial fax (אגרת שלומים) when the recipient fax is located in Shabbos time-zone. There is no much reasoning there, and he doesn't bring up Avsha at all.<br /><br />Another point regarding the original issue: some say Avsha only applies when the noise might suggest sopmeone is doing Melacha deOrayso. Modern phone system does not involve any deOrayso as far as I know (arguably even the Chason-Ish would agree there is no Boneh where the circuit is intended to be temporary). <br /><br />Since you mentioned discussing the Shabbos-clock issue with R. Moshe: can you explain his Amirah LeAkum idea? [in fact the whole Tshuva is highly puzzling; looks like there is some a-priori פאסט נישט feeling there]Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-26719208978460046112009-10-14T11:35:54.887-05:002009-10-14T11:35:54.887-05:00So I looked up Albeck; Hanoch Albeck, whose studen...So I looked up Albeck; Hanoch Albeck, whose students, according to Wikipedia, include Avraham Goldberg and Avraham Yehoshua Heschel, both Wissenshaft Das Judentums / Masorti Jews from what I can tell. I don't know if you could say Albeck was immersed in the Yeshiva world. Although you and I imagine Shabtai Rappaport know of him, most Bnei Torah in Ponovezh or Chevron do not.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-73158474470208376592009-10-14T09:41:31.009-05:002009-10-14T09:41:31.009-05:00Great Unknown, thanks; I incorporated it into the ...Great Unknown, thanks; I incorporated it into the post. But I'm having some trouble following the flow of thought in the Oneg Yomtov; the case seems to change in midstream.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-72390272531621776152009-10-14T09:09:34.413-05:002009-10-14T09:09:34.413-05:00And also the new city they're talking about bu...And also the new city they're talking about building in the Negev.<br /><br />I glanced at Reb Moshe's teshuva about timers, and I see that it's time for me to review it. I was relying primarily on shakla vetaria discussions we had with Reb Moshe on the issue, and didn't pay enough attention to the more careful written version. In my memories of our discussions, it's likely that he might have agreed with my ideas only as far as their being defensible, but not that he agreed with them.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-51823705753250800312009-10-14T01:50:56.884-05:002009-10-14T01:50:56.884-05:00I think R. Shachter brings R. Moshe's tshuva t...I think R. Shachter brings R. Moshe's tshuva to support the idea that even according to Beis-Hillel, the Heter is only if the Melacha starts before Shabbos, which essentially concords with Prof. Lev (and apparently the Rambam, didn't see it). This, per-se is not related to the question at hand, I agree.<br /><br />But, we could wonder why is it so that a Melacha starting on Shabbos is worse than something starting on Friday going into Shabbos. [R. Moshe says that in such a case the Melacha is unrelated to the Maaseh, but then he stresses that this is not to say he is considered doing it now]<br /><br />It is possible that the fact something *starts* on Shabbos makes it more of a problem of Zilussa. If so, it should apply for our case too, as Zillusa (like Avsha) maybe does not depend on the time of the Maaseh, rather on the effect.<br /><br />[I never understood the Amira LeAkum comparison in R. Moshe's tshuva; if automatic machines is a problem of Amira, why is it ok to start a machine working on friday into Shabbos? Do we have a Hetter of Amira LeAkkum if the Goy starts working Friday? This is before getting into the new Gzeyra issue, which he mentions and seems to retract a bit, saying it's "Ra'uy Leheasser" (?!)] <br /><br />As for Avsha - I didn't check but in Gmara and Poskim it appears for Reychayim, probably to be heard around the neighborhoood, to be compared to our-days factory; and maybe a wall-clock (again, making much noise every hour [btw, R. SZ seems to have understood the problem with the clock to be its ticking ??]). So, I think that taken together with the Svara of no Chashad nowadays, one can safely argue Avsha could be limited to something loud enough to be heard on the street. But I admit Poskim do bring this up for washing machines, dryers, dish-washers, etc.<br /><br />BTW, יגעת ומצאת תאמין, I did found someone quoting Rav Elyashiv as saying Avsha applies to a/c except for places where it is normally (i.e. on weekdays) used automatically - left open all day long using thermostats, like hotels, hospitals etc. Luckily this Chumra was not picked up yet in 90-degrees-75%-humidity-summers Bney-Brak.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-37449189902499301472009-10-13T23:26:08.986-05:002009-10-13T23:26:08.986-05:00Eli- regarding your observation that Rabbi Shachte...Eli- regarding your observation that Rabbi Shachter is machmir-- Yes, he is. He says אינו נכון to send an e-mail. But אינו נכון is not assur. <br /><br />I disregarded his אינו נכון because it is just an underhanded way of pushing Prof. Lev's thesis by intentionally misusing, or using a faulty understanding of, Reb Moshe's teshuva. Reb Moshe's chumrah deals with a case where this person set the timer before Shabbos and personally benefits from the melacha that results on his Shabbos. The melacha that results can be viewed halachically as if it were being done at his command on Shabbos, since he arranged for it to occur then, so it is similar to Amira Le'akum. Where the do-er and the melacha are both after Shabbos, it would probably not matter that it is being done on someone else's Shabbos.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-76136520828926854382009-10-13T21:25:43.099-05:002009-10-13T21:25:43.099-05:00regarding the chometz issue, the שו"ת עונג י...regarding the chometz issue, the שו"ת עונג יום טוב או"ח סי' ל"ו is interesting. Note that his proof <br />is based on the assumption that chazal would incorporate the concept of time zones in a היכי תמצאgreat unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-44002854156833854322009-10-13T16:03:45.139-05:002009-10-13T16:03:45.139-05:00All the rest of you Talmidei Chachamim, come on! ...All the rest of you Talmidei Chachamim, come on! I need some more input here!Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-21351090420331715662009-10-13T16:02:27.078-05:002009-10-13T16:02:27.078-05:00I like your case of the west-bound pot.
I didn...I like your case of the west-bound pot.<br /><br />I didn't mean mesorah, I meant shimush talmidei chachamim. But I certainly agree that whatever kulos we can find re avsha milsa would be a mitzvah, since now everyone knows that they are automatic and there is neither chashad nor zilzul. Maybe by a factory that is doing robotic manufacturing. But not in a private house.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-66364497834928371542009-10-13T15:51:51.380-05:002009-10-13T15:51:51.380-05:00The fact that it's immediate is a factor in de...The fact that it's immediate is a factor in deciding whether to consider it Beyadayim or not (and that's why we don't have a Reish Lakish here). It has nothing to do with the question of when and where is the Mechayev assuming it is considered Beyadayim. Thus I do say that he is doing something that began and ended after Shabbat; he is not doing anything beyadayim on Shabbat, just the effect is going to occur on Shabbat.<br /><br />In other words, I claim that if we assume the indirectness (is that a word?) of Aish to be irrelevant (holding like R. Yochanan), why is lighting a fire that would burn on the next Shabbos in EY would be different than lighting a fire that would burn the previous shabbos in the US?<br /><br />By the way, what would you say on the following case: I put a pot on the fire Shabbos afternoon. It is not cooked till Motzash. No chiyuv. Now, I do the same but the pot is taken by an airplane going west, getting cooked when and where the local time is Shabbos. Is it different than your case?<br /><br />I agree the Hava-Amina of the NY is against me. It is just that his Maskana is different.<br /><br />I'm not sure Mesorah is the right term. I think there was no much discussion of Avsha till the last decades. In fact, one may claim that today when usage of timers and automatic setup of machines is so common, the whole concept does not apply (see R. SZA on alarm clock)<br /><br />I think the consensus understanding of the Chason-Ish is that it applies only to where the item is fixed to the wall, not just loosely hanged (the CI does hold that a picture is Muktze Mechamas Chesron Kis though)<br /><br />OU sheet - wonders of google: http://www.ou.org/pdf/daf/5765/Daf%2013-9.pdf I once read Prof. Lev's wonderful work, but I don't remember much of it.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-12497262273743542892009-10-13T13:52:01.563-05:002009-10-13T13:52:01.563-05:00I knew someone would bring up the Nimukei Yosef! ...I knew someone would bring up the Nimukei Yosef! But there is a big difference between Reb Yochanan's Isho mishum chitzo and ma'aseh be'yadayim. The Nimukei Yosef himself says that the raya that it is all considered finished as soon as it begins is because otherwise, he would be pattur for the results because of din oneis. Also, we know that if he were to die before Shabbat began, the same rules of kim lei would apply. Here, however, the act is immediate and direct, unlike fire, and there is no Reish Lakish that argues and says mishum memono; and therefore he is not doing something that began and ended before Shabbat; he is doing something beyadayim on Shabbat. In fact, the Nimukei Yosef is a raya that it should be assur. His original postulate is that if we were to view his act as occurring on Shabbat, he would be chayav even though his involvement ended before Shabbat began, because he is actually doing the act on Shabbat.<br /><br />I like your point about the avsha problem for the caller. <br /><br />And yes, of course Avsha Milsa is something that one needs a mesora on, because it's utterly undefined in the poskim.<br /><br />The Chazon Ish, if I remember correctly, is talking about the problem of mosif al ha'ohel, but I don't know where it is.<br /><br />And I'll recheck the Prof Lev matter. How did you find that OU sheet so fast????Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-91201480177891699372009-10-13T13:20:00.741-05:002009-10-13T13:20:00.741-05:00Regarding question #3, it seems La'anius Da...Regarding question #3, it seems La'anius Da'ati clear that there is no problem Mi'Deoraysa. The argument is the following: The famous Nimukey Yosef (Isho Mishum Chitzov vs. shabbos candles) tells us that even if later effects of my action are considered my Maaseh, they are still considered something I did now (at time of action). That's why I can put a pot on the fire Friday afternoon, aiming it will be cooked on Shabbos (forget about Shehi'a). That is, the Mechayev is the action, not the result. If the action took place on Friday, we're ok. <br /><br />Applying space-time symmetry, same should work for cases where the action is in EY and result in US where it's still Shabbos. Since the Mechayev is not the light that went on in the US but my action in EY, and this action was done after Shabbos, it should be Muttar.<br /><br />Yet, I think there is a 4th problem not put forth here as far as I understand. Question #1 deals with Avsha Milsa on part of the fax/answering-machine owner. My Q.#4 is whether there is a problem of Avsha for the caller.<br /><br />Here I think there might be a problem. Avsha is always an Issur to do something on Chol that will cause (noisy) results on Shabbos. The same way it is Assur to put a timer on Motzash to play the music on my shabbos table 6 days later, it should be Assur to do it on someone's else shabbos table, which is space-separated and not time-separated.<br /><br />Rav Belsky talks about email (which typically is not noisy) and fax (depends). For a message played on a loudspeaker, sound all over the house, there might be a problem.<br /><br />Yet, Shmirat-Shabat allows a phone call. So the question is what exactly do we include under Avsha. I've never seen someone who's machmir on a/c, but many quote Avsha for dish-washers. Are they that much noisier? I've also seen Rav SZ Auerbach quoted as allowing to keep you fax open as long as the noise is not heard out of the room. So maybe a phone call is the same, or not.<br /><br />BTW, Rav Shachter is machmir (unlike quoted in the blog) based on Prof. Lev's point. Also, I didn't see the SSK attributes it to Rav Scheinberg. Third, I don't agree the Chason-Ish says hanging a picture is Deorayso.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-46284771619939703892009-10-12T22:57:08.865-05:002009-10-12T22:57:08.865-05:00Hmmmm.....Hmmmm.....Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-62062708339566026232009-10-12T22:34:44.348-05:002009-10-12T22:34:44.348-05:00The Chometz is A gavrah Cheftzah ThingThe Chometz is A gavrah Cheftzah ThingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com