tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post3686360115117359162..comments2024-03-20T18:38:31.327-05:00Comments on Havolim: Chayei Sarah, Bereishis 23:2. Hesped for a Suicide Eliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-81862024958426484952013-10-25T10:01:42.112-05:002013-10-25T10:01:42.112-05:00I was just in the Kollel looking for the Imrei Sha...I was just in the Kollel looking for the Imrei Shammai (they don't have it.) When I said over the idea that the same way there are madreigos in retzicha there are madreigos in me'abeid atzmo, I realized that it is very pashut, and really should end the discussion.<br />But while I was there, a yungermahn told me that he heard from Rav Yitzchok Perman of Philadelphia that when Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky was Rov in Tzituvyan, he warned someone not to fast on Yom Kippur. He fasted and died, and Reb Yakov refused to be maspid, because he held he was a me'abeid atzmo. Obviously there could be other factors there as well, such as making a statement about listening to the psak of a Rov and to ensure that others would not do the same in the future. But the stated reason was me'abeid atzmo.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-24355207123531700612013-10-24T21:00:09.668-05:002013-10-24T21:00:09.668-05:00Thanks. I'll check it out .Thanks. I'll check it out .Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-59256434114142707212013-10-24T20:46:45.955-05:002013-10-24T20:46:45.955-05:00I saw the Imrei Shamai quotes the Ba'al haTuri...I saw the Imrei Shamai quotes the Ba'al haTurim and deals with your issue by saying that Sarah was only indirect causation of m'abed atzmo; the din of no hesped only applies when you directly do it. (It's like a gerama vs. ma'aseh.) I don't think you will be satisfied with that, but I wanted to pass on the mareh makom anyway.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-88492194040680152482013-10-24T14:32:29.440-05:002013-10-24T14:32:29.440-05:00Very good point. It's important that we stress...Very good point. It's important that we stress that this is not a condemnation, or even a criticism. It is more in the way of the criticism of Moshe Rabbeinu at Mei Meriva, where he struck the rock instead of speaking to it- a act that was only considered wrong in the context of Moshe Rabbeinu's angelic perfection. By the standard of absolute middas hadin as applied to a man who spoke to Hashem constantly, it was the wrong thing to do. Which leads into my suggested explanation- that of course Sarah was entitled to hesped, because what she did was, as you said, entirely right by normal human standards. Only by the heightened standards of the great Sarah was her act deemed imperfect. The slightest imperfection on a background of flawless perfection, the faintest gray mark on a glowing white cloth, appears terrible.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-87013317849070936202013-10-24T13:26:48.628-05:002013-10-24T13:26:48.628-05:00Don't understand why undermining our Mother Sa...Don't understand why undermining our Mother Sarah, when she was on a higher spiritual level than Avraham Avinu; and we surely don't come to the soles of her feet. Her actions, after all, were just human.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-81380598945210826202013-10-23T13:12:17.883-05:002013-10-23T13:12:17.883-05:00First point- you'll have to be mechaleik betwe...First point- you'll have to be mechaleik between direct and indirect. Second point you're mechavein to great unk in the older post. Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-2871080902797310382013-10-23T11:39:01.583-05:002013-10-23T11:39:01.583-05:00I don't understand - ain yisrurim b'lo che...I don't understand - ain yisrurim b'lo cheit v'ain misah b'lo avon. Since at the end of the day everyone (or at least every tzadik) dies only because of his/her sins, for which he/she alone is responsible, every death can be categorized as suicide through aveira. <br /><br />In terms of the question, I would suggest a Brisker-ish answer: there are 2 dinim in hesped - 1) honor for the dead; 2) benefit for the living mourners (Sanhedrin 45). Perhaps Sarah's being m'orer din caused a diminishment in terms of the honor she deserved through hesped, but in terms of second din Avraham felt he still should say something. Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.com