tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post5135619600728824737..comments2024-03-20T18:38:31.327-05:00Comments on Havolim: Matos, Bamidbar 31:4. Elef LaMatteh. Direct Responsibility for a SoldierEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-27635714778429655872011-07-19T15:19:20.735-05:002011-07-19T15:19:20.735-05:00These comments really belong on the newer post.
I...These comments really belong on the newer post.<br /><br />In any case, I invited a reader who is a yodei'a sefer and halacha to write from the Dati Le'umi perspective, and I plan to post it when I get it. If any of you, particularly the more vituperative of you, would like to post as well, I would be happy to look at what you have and post it. I have to agree that it falls under the rubric of eilu v'eilu.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-60535654690874191022011-07-19T15:10:41.108-05:002011-07-19T15:10:41.108-05:00Now we're redefining the terms to the point th...Now we're redefining the terms to the point that the discussion becomes meaningless.Michael Kopinskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16239953045100689630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-42684331519535461892011-07-19T14:49:12.722-05:002011-07-19T14:49:12.722-05:00Three-weeks addendum: If 80% of chareidim were cha...Three-weeks addendum: If 80% of chareidim were chareidim, there might not be any need to fight.great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-6588158961184203102011-07-19T13:36:24.193-05:002011-07-19T13:36:24.193-05:00If 80% of Israelis were chareidi, there would be n...If 80% of Israelis were chareidi, there would be no need for anyone to fight.great unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-20761847572344696172011-07-19T10:20:43.834-05:002011-07-19T10:20:43.834-05:00Also, as far as the Russian argument goes- what pe...Also, as far as the Russian argument goes- what percentage of the Russian population is getting that exemption? Further, what happens if all of the tefillos of the charedi movemnt are answered and 80% of Israel becomes Charedi? Who serves? Who decides?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-76081077121914559202011-07-19T10:15:55.289-05:002011-07-19T10:15:55.289-05:00A. Now we're comparing ourselves to the Russia...A. Now we're comparing ourselves to the Russians? The RUSSIANS?<br /><br />B. If I had to guess, the Arab armies would literally have to be outside the Yeshivas door for them to pick up a gun. I've never heard stories of massive Charedi enlistment in 67 or 73. <br /><br />C. The anti religious indoctrination argument certainly doesn't apply anymore with units like Nahal Chareidi- an all male base with glatt food. Anyway, it's not like the gedolim at the beginning of our state were willing to negotiate for individual charedi units. Didn't the Chazon Ish say that Sheirut Leumi was Yareg V'al Ya'avor? I remember a quote from his artscroll "biography" that one of his gabbaim or students said that even if the government was paying girls to say tehillim it would be assur (working for the government). So I'm pretty sure it is an anti state thing. <br /><br />D. I agree that many charedim/yeshivish people are bothered by it- but then they read divrei torah like the one you posted and are reassured that everything's ok. That was my issue with the post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-34121615785669662892011-07-19T09:56:43.333-05:002011-07-19T09:56:43.333-05:00Too bad you can't put pictures into these comm...Too bad you can't put pictures into these comments, because if ever there was a time to use the quiche on the right side....<br /><br />As far as I know, theoretically the Israeli system only exempts people who are actively involved in learning in yeshiva. I wonder if the idea of exempting Yeshiva students is unique to Chareidi society. <br /><br />News Article:<br /><br />Russian President Vladimir Putin has issued a presidential decree authorizing the deferment of military conscription for young clerics and seminary students.<br /><br />Vatican Code of Canon Law:<br /><br />Can. 289 §1. Since military service is hardly in keeping with the clerical state, clerics and candidates for sacred orders are not to volunteer for military service except with the permission of their ordinary<br /><br />Historical Fact:<br /><br />Clerics and students were exempt from military service during the middle ages.<br /><br />Of course, the idea of clerical deferment is anathema to our Mesora. On the contrary, it is the tzadikim and chasidim who were the best soldiers. <br /><br />But more to the point, I wonder under what circumstances the chareidim would willingly join the army. As I understand it, the resistance is not monolithic. There are many differing reasons why most chareidim don't serve. The ones I'm familiar with are:<br />1. The army historically was, certainly in the early years, a blatant means of anti-religious indoctrination.<br />2. The army was often hostile, to religious observances, such as kashrus, tznius. and Shemiras Shabbos.<br />3. The army is an arm of and requires loyalty to Medinas Yisrael, as you mentioned, and many yeshiva people have either theological ambiguity or antipathy toward the Medina, and live in Israel because of Kedushas Ha'aretz, not because of the political State.<br /><br />To assert that they feel that their blood is more precious, or that they are cowards, or that they all are Neturei Karta enemies of the Medina, or that they are raised to be parasites, sounds like more like Tel Avivian propaganda than reasoned analysis, wouldn't you agree?<br /><br />In any case, I think that most American yeshiva Jews find the resistance to military service puzzling, but defer to the Gedolei Yisrael that set the policy in place and zealously uphold it even now. Even the Ponovezher Rov didn't encourage his talmidim to join the army. I wonder why?bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-32839830846995815432011-07-19T04:42:26.431-05:002011-07-19T04:42:26.431-05:00A. Yes, they are making excuses
B. Of course it&...A. Yes, they are making excuses<br />B. Of course it's not the fault of the Sifri, but using the Sifri to justify not serving is wrong. <br />C. It seemed to me that this post was something of an endorsement for the Charedi view in Israel that what they do is just as important as serving (something i've heard from chareidim in the states as well). If i misunderstood I apologize.<br />D. I think the term yishuv is just a simplistic and inaccurate way of describing what they are fighting for. There are "Yishuvs" all over the world, I like to think that what we have in Israel goes beyond merely a lot of Jews living in one place.Obviously protecting Jewish lives is the main purpose.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-66899667528920634982011-07-18T22:09:36.653-05:002011-07-18T22:09:36.653-05:00Chaim- that's the topic for the second post I ...Chaim- that's the topic for the second post I have planned- what distinguished this war such that according to Rashi's Sifri, the Leviim fought along with everyone else, and other chilukim.<br /><br />Anonymous- Mah pishi umah chatasi? Morally bankrupt? Did I say that Chareidim shouldn't fight? Are the Chareidim inventing excuses? Whatever problem you have with the attitude of the old fashioned yeshiva people is not the fault of the Sifri. And what's your problem with my use of the term yishuv? Is there not a yishuv in Eretz Yisrael? Yes, there's a state, too, but the yishuv, the lives of actual Jews, is far more important to me than the political categorization. <br /><br />Welcome to the Three Weeks, when Jews are at each others' throats even more than usual.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-41291752487678310522011-07-18T18:31:04.231-05:002011-07-18T18:31:04.231-05:00Who picks the ten people davening and learning? Wh...Who picks the ten people davening and learning? What if everyone wants to do it? Who's going to fight? Who's going to die? My children? Maybe my children should be the ones saying tehillim and yours should be the ones in the field. Should only the secular Jews get blown up because they don't know how to learn? It's a morally bankrupt argument. The Chareidim in Israel aren't willing to make the sacrifice so they invent justifications that what they're doing is "also important". Is the learning in Hesder Yeshivas on such a low level they need to make up for it with service? Is the tehillim said in KBY, Hakotel, or Gush less valid? They want to say tehillim? Good- do it next to your tank like thousands of other soldiers. Also, I have to take issue with this statement "they're doing their job to protect the yishuv in Eretz Yisrael" They're fighting for the state. They're not dying for what you seem to think they're dying for. They aren't fighting for the right to live in a Yishuv. You can do that in New York or Peterson Park without the bloodshed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-25428053502422967582011-07-18T18:23:34.662-05:002011-07-18T18:23:34.662-05:00Why did this same takanah not apply during the war...Why did this same takanah not apply during the wars against Sichon/Og?Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-71500966017833906752011-07-18T17:16:20.184-05:002011-07-18T17:16:20.184-05:00I don't want to write b'arichus now, but a...I don't want to write b'arichus now, but at the time, one of the negative responses to this made me come to the very hard realization that there are some in the Chareidi community who crossed the line of Eilu v'Eilu.<br /><br />I realize that I'm leaving a bomb here without explaining, but the explanation is too hard. Maybe later I'll gather the strength.Michael Kopinskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16239953045100689630noreply@blogger.com