tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post5861275261030330192..comments2024-03-20T18:38:31.327-05:00Comments on Havolim: Haazinu 32:3 and the Nusach of Kedusha. כי שם ה' אקראEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-30021239176319969972012-09-28T17:13:15.563-05:002012-09-28T17:13:15.563-05:00On rh-yk we say וכן לך לעלה קדושה.... ככתוב... I t...On rh-yk we say וכן לך לעלה קדושה.... ככתוב... I thought that might be similar to (or even one step further than) כסוד vs כשם.Michael Kopinskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16239953045100689630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-59998834225160506262012-09-27T15:15:58.072-05:002012-09-27T15:15:58.072-05:00The Reb Chaim that was the son of the Beis Halevi ...The Reb Chaim that was the son of the Beis Halevi and great-grandson of Reb Chaim Volozhener and father of the Gri'z. His point was that Reb Chaim's lomdus methodology was so foreign to his way of thinking as to be incomprehensible. And he didn't say he didn't understand a word. He said he didn't understand one full paragraph. I think that might have been a hyperbole, because sometimes the introductory paragraphs are pretty straightforward. He must have been referring to the paragraphs that express Reb Chaim's particular style of thinking and analysis.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-41112800308913325372012-09-27T15:05:54.233-05:002012-09-27T15:05:54.233-05:00Just curious - about which R Chaim did Rav Hirshpr...Just curious - about which R Chaim did Rav Hirshprung say that he doesn't understand a word?sassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-60153256308737072232012-09-27T07:52:26.954-05:002012-09-27T07:52:26.954-05:00RChQ, so you noticed that Eli is not just another ...RChQ, so you noticed that Eli is not just another local lamden? I don't know if he'll answer, but unless you were expecting a highly regarded researcher and professor of theoretical physics- among other things- you might be surprised.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-16107289609093379012012-09-27T07:12:50.723-05:002012-09-27T07:12:50.723-05:00Eli who are you?Eli who are you?Reuven Chaim Kleinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836805247888732019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-52950269795719171252012-09-27T05:03:29.152-05:002012-09-27T05:03:29.152-05:00I followed his "ובאמת זה שינוי הנוסח של אשכנז...I followed his "ובאמת זה שינוי הנוסח של אשכנזים והספרדים אם נקדישך או נקדש", but you might be correct. I don't know what's the difference between כשם and כסוד either, but there might be one.<br /><br />Regarding bney EY, I now realized they used the 'standard' opening of Kedusha only on 'regular' Shabbos - on special occasions such as Arba Parshios, Zain deNechemta etc, and of course on YT, there was typically a Kedushta (such as the piyyut (we skip) in our Machzor, going all through the first three brachot; in our Machzor the end of the piyyut is usually followed by the standard introductory phrase, e.g. אז בקול רעש but this is a late addition). Some of the Kedushtaot show a more complex picture. Just one example, from YK Shcachris, where on one hand we have "שנאנים ישבחוך תרשישים יתמידוך קדושה משולשת ככתוב ע"י נביאך וכו'" and then in the next passage "לכן כל אשר באפיו נשמת רוח... יסלדו וסלסלו לאל בורא רוח, כחיה ואופן יבוא בם רוח, לעמתם ברוך יאמרו וכו'" -- so the two concepts of Kedusha were used interchangeably. I checked a few more, and they also have one of the psukim introduced as a quote of Malachim and the other as our own.<br /><br />Nusach EY was, by an large, lost, as the Babylonians won their war against EY yeshiva. Interestingly, some of its reminiscents survived (in Ashkenaz) in Yom-Tov and especially RH and YK, where we say עושה השלום, לעלא ולעלא, קדוש אתה ונורא שמך, שאותך לבדך ביראה נעבוד etc. -- all of these are all-year-around nuschaot of EY.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-92168565906429638942012-09-27T03:45:38.807-05:002012-09-27T03:45:38.807-05:00Thank you, RChK.
Eli- you get a cigar for (b). S...Thank you, RChK.<br /><br />Eli- you get a cigar for (b). See<br />http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37579&st=&pgnum=238&hilite= from the עטור בכורים that suggests the same. His pshat was unique, until you were mechavein.<br /><br />Re (a), I don't think he's talking about נקדש and נקדישך. I think, and I'm guessing here, he's talking about כשם and כסוד.<br /><br />(c) is very interesting. I thought the Shittas Hageonim would never be independently validated, that it only existed in some small corner of the world.<br /><br />re (d), it's a quarter to four in the morning here, and I'm not going to check out the Reah till it's light outside and I can think coherently. But it sounds awesome.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-58541271656413656312012-09-27T03:24:44.948-05:002012-09-27T03:24:44.948-05:00Beautiful! Thank you.
Some comments: (a) I am not...Beautiful! Thank you.<br /><br />Some comments: (a) I am not sure there is any grammatical difference between נקדש את שמך and נקדישך. Both mean WE will sanctify. כתר could be different, see below. (b) Tosefta could be talking about Kedusha of Yotzer, thus no Yimloch. Maybe that's why the term "המברך" is used, and not "שליח ציבור". (c) Now that the Cairo Geniza was studied, Nusach EY is actually known. They did not say Kedusha at all except for special days, even then only on Shachris (not even Mussaf), and YK also in Mussaf, Mincha and Neila. (d) On a positive note, the idea that נקדש is סיפור דברים as opposed to the Mussaf Kedusha goes back to the Rishonim, e.g. Re'ah in Orchos Chayim (but he refers to Keter, and claims עם עמך ישראל means Yisroel are עיקר. Birkey Yosef relates this to Mechlokes RT with R. Elchanan on עם דרך ארץ). See http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40307&st=&pgnum=155&hilite=Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-53092863578534050212012-09-27T00:54:22.215-05:002012-09-27T00:54:22.215-05:00יישר כחך.יישר כחך.Reuven Chaim Kleinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836805247888732019noreply@blogger.com