tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post8503161334709950829..comments2024-03-20T18:38:31.327-05:00Comments on Havolim: Chukas, Bamidbar 20:12. Moshe Rabbeinu's Inevitable FallEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-72240047972356578082013-06-16T13:17:28.395-05:002013-06-16T13:17:28.395-05:00After seeing the Abarbanel, it seems his pshat pro...After seeing the Abarbanel, it seems his pshat provides an alternative (more conservative) understanding of the Sifri. After reviewing different approaches to Mei Meriva, he suggests the idea that Moshe was really punished for his role in Meraglim (as it says in Dvarim), and Aharon for the Egel. Hashem did not want to punish them together with everyone else, since their Chet was much smaller, so Mei Meriva was just the occasion upon which they were punished for something else. In particular, he says on Aharon "שמפני זה בא הדבור לאהרן גם כן עם משה אעפ״י שלא היה צריך בענין ההוא כי אהרן לא דבר ולא הכה אבל נקרא שמה כדי לשתפם שניהם יחד בעונש המיתה". I think he doesn't bring the Sifri (maybe he does and I missed it), but this last statement is very much like עלילה<br /><br />See in length here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14388&st=&pgnum=101&hilite=Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-49336857131666186952013-06-13T21:15:08.829-05:002013-06-13T21:15:08.829-05:00Excuse me, but after reading your most recent adde...Excuse me, but after reading your most recent addendum, I had to scratch my head and ask, "Why exactly are these 'devorim beteilim'?" In fact, some ba'alei mussar use these arguments to be don others l'kaf zechus.<br /><br />I personally use this logic to be don myself the same way.<br />great Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-59227892552621984362013-06-13T12:00:37.658-05:002013-06-13T12:00:37.658-05:00This is the main part of what he says. It seems th...This is the main part of what he says. It seems that Hashem took away his Bechira because he had attained the ultimate purpose of the creation of human beings.<br /><br />ועל כרחין שהשי״ת שלל ממנו הבחירה לגמרי ונשאר מוכרח כמלאכים שמשה שמצר עצמו עמל ויגע כל כך עד שהעלה עצמו למדרגה הגבוה שבמדרגות האנושי השלימית היותר האפשרי לכן וכה שיבעל ממנו הבחירה א״כ זה עיקר תכלית הבריאה לזכך החומר עד שישיב<br />בשרו גם לרוחני <br />....<br />אבל כל ישראל שהמה לא היו ראוים למדרגה ולנבואה כזו רק כדי לקיים הרת שלא יבוא שוס מבהיל להכחיש דבר אחד ע״י אות ומופת הוכרחו לעלות למעלה רמה כזו לשמוע קול אלקים<br />....<br />אח״כ הלא שבו לבחירה שאל״כ אין תכלית תו בברייתם ובלא בחירה הלא לא היה להם שכר על קיום התורה שעל הכרח אין שכר כיין שלא מצר עמלם והכנתם היה סר מאתם הבחירה וזה שאמר שובו לכס לאהליכם היינו לבחירה ולכוחות הגוף המוקף באלפי כוחות דמיונות ההטעאה שקריות תאוות חשק וכיו״ב וזה האוהל שהגוף הוא אוהל הנפש שבעת מתן *הורה יצאת נשמתם הוא שהחומר לא היה חיצן מאומה ואתה פה עמיד׳ עמדי שזהו שאצלו בעלה כל כוחות הגוף וחומריותו והשגתו צלולה ובהירה ונעדר בחירתו ונשאר משכיל מעוצם השגתו מוכרח להשלימית היותר נעלהEliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-8414649555822111322013-06-13T11:44:39.743-05:002013-06-13T11:44:39.743-05:00I haven't looked at the RMS in awhile, but I a...I haven't looked at the RMS in awhile, but I always thought that Moshe could not sin because of the mishna in Avos -- he is the paradigm of someone who is mezakeh es ha'rabim and therefore gets the havtacha of ain cheit ba al yado. M'meila, by mei meriva it makes perfect sense: since Moshe had the opportunity l'hakdisheini l'einie BN"Y and be mezakeh the rabim but in this case failed, his cheit of striking the rock counts against him. Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-40051477522112465232013-06-13T11:01:23.473-05:002013-06-13T11:01:23.473-05:00I recently have been thinking about something one ...I recently have been thinking about something one of the Eretzyisroeldikkeh gedolim "was quoted as having said"- "they disagree with everything we say, but when they need a bracha, who do they come to???"<br /><br />I'm not impressed by the logic of that complaint. Just because you're a tzadik and a baal mofeis doesn't mean I would ask your advice for business, marriage, or politics. Along the same lines, I wonder if Yaaminu could be on some things, but on other things absolutely not.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-14027353822627436912013-06-13T10:29:00.768-05:002013-06-13T10:29:00.768-05:00Wow, you're right, the גם בך יאמינו לעולם vort...Wow, you're right, the גם בך יאמינו לעולם vort. That really belongs in the post. So according to RMS, it was totally not a product of Moshe Rabbeinu's volition. So to say that Meriva was a retzon Hashem to some degree pretext would not be a surprise at all.<br /><br />But then the whole implication of "lo heemantem" by Meriva becomes a problem. <br /><br />Kupperman asks this there in note 21 and he says that Reb Meir Simcha only said that Moshe Rabbeinu was מוכרח כמלאכים, that he was on a madreiga of a Malach, and Malachim can "sin" too, as he brings from the Medrash Rabba on Bereishis 19:13, where the Malachim said<br /> כי משחיתים אנחנו את המקום הזה<br />either for revealing a secret or for saying "we," not "Hashem."<br /><br />he Medrash there says that their punishment was they were Nidcheh from their Mechitza-<br /> מלאכי השרת ע"י שגילו מסטורין של הקדוש ברוך הוא, נדחו ממחיצתן מאה ושלושים ושמונה שנה. <br /><br />אמר רבי חמא בר חנינא: על שנתגאו ואמרו כי משחיתים אנחנו את המקום הזה <br /><br />Or you could say, like they use to answer Korach's lack of faith, that the yaaminu was not absolute.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-16249157984046190572013-06-13T09:51:47.151-05:002013-06-13T09:51:47.151-05:00Moshe Rabeinu had no bechira -- Meshech Chomcha, h...Moshe Rabeinu had no bechira -- Meshech Chomcha, hakdamah to sefer Shmos. Of course everything that happened to him was somehow a matter of destiny.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-14563778730448588182013-06-12T18:58:54.131-05:002013-06-12T18:58:54.131-05:00I don't have those sefarim. And I would probab...I don't have those sefarim. And I would probably not understand them if I did. I would appreciate an expert's precis. Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-16530016031256325152013-06-12T09:16:53.368-05:002013-06-12T09:16:53.368-05:00Sorry for the abbreviated previous comment: I was ...Sorry for the abbreviated previous comment: I was in middle of learning the same topic [but tangential] with a chaverusa when I realized that I should make the comment before I forgot, but I didn't want to take too much time.<br /><br />See Pachad Yitzchok Shavuos ma'amar 43, siman 6. Or, if you want to go where "litvaks" think they shouldn't go, see the whole ma'amar.<br /><br />והאלקים אנה לידו indeedgreat Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-26596503850703691652013-06-12T08:46:55.895-05:002013-06-12T08:46:55.895-05:00This is included in the "mashal hakadmoni&quo...This is included in the "mashal hakadmoni" of "v'haElokim ina l'yado." Where Rashi also uses the expression דרך תואנה ועלילה.<br /><br />The Ramchal and Michtav Me'Eliyahu seem to say clearly this sometimes this is not just manipulation but actual removal of free will; the Rambam would seem to disagree.<br />great Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15728976902210831137noreply@blogger.com