tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post8798918435416976388..comments2024-03-20T18:38:31.327-05:00Comments on Havolim: Little Observations in Parshas BalakEliezer Eisenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-50791313024946241932013-06-26T14:15:18.759-05:002013-06-26T14:15:18.759-05:00I see. I didn't read the Tosfos Yeshanim befor...I see. I didn't read the Tosfos Yeshanim before. Thank you. I still think I'm right though.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04703845596227974473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-45808537715350494352013-06-25T13:24:34.290-05:002013-06-25T13:24:34.290-05:00another random thought regarding RYBK. When I read...another random thought regarding RYBK. When I read this famous Mishna, I recall another incident. I don't know what to deduce from this juxtaposition, but I think there is something in it.<br /><br />לא כך היה המעשה בבית הכנסת של טבריה בנגר שיש בראשו גלוסטרא שנחלקו בו רבי אלעזר ורבי יוסי עד שקרעו ספר תורה בחמתן. קרעו סלקא דעתין אלא אימא שנקרע ספר תורה בחמתן. והיה שם רבי יוסי בן קיסמא אמר תמיה אני אם לא יהיה בית הכנסת זו עבודת כוכבים וכן הוהElihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-45343963755528171592013-06-25T13:02:11.306-05:002013-06-25T13:02:11.306-05:00There are two separate issues here.
A. עם vs. את...There are two separate issues here. <br /><br />A. עם vs. את -- you are correct that the use of את to mean 'with' is only in Tanach, not in Chazal (generally, maybe there are exceptions). So the question why use one or the other, and what does it mean, should be limited to Tanach.<br /><br />B. When we use א עם ב - does it mean one is more important than the other? RT and R. Elchanan specifically discuss this for ת"ת עם ד"א and compare it with חיים עם אשה. So they assume the answer to the above question is positive (even though they disagree who is the Ikkar), and that the answer should apply to both Tanach and Chazal in the same way.<br /><br />You may ask, which wording would Chazal use to say 'A and B' when both are equally important. I would say that using א וב suggests a more equal position. However, even for this form we find in Chazal that the first might be more important (משה ואהרן, אהרן ומשה, ללמדך ששניהם שקולים).<br /><br />So, interestingly, it might be the case that one must go out of his way to say A and B in a way that would mean they are absolutely equal. In other words, Chazal hold it to be self-evident, that typically men are not equal.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-9872825186161034992013-06-25T10:54:04.255-05:002013-06-25T10:54:04.255-05:00the difference explained by the meforshim between ...the difference explained by the meforshim between עמו and אתו cannot then be applied to every instance of עם used in Mishnayot (יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ) since you don't have an alternative of using את as a word -- יפה תלמוד תורה את דרך ארץ is not לשון משנה.<br /><br />Furthermore, even if you would apply the nuance to Mishnayot, there still is a differnce with עם with the possessive suffix of עמו עמנו עמי versus without -- אברהם עם לוט -- i'm not so sure gives any connotation of טפל ועיקר. Similarly חיים עם אשה.<br /><br />Unless I've overlooked something all the meforshim discussing the concept of טפל ועיקר are discussing in cases where עם is joined with a possessive. correct me if i'm wrong...Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04703845596227974473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-21208288728700085122013-06-24T15:34:09.828-05:002013-06-24T15:34:09.828-05:00Yasher Koach. That definitely makes a real differ...Yasher Koach. That definitely makes a real difference. Bilaam's story was <br />כִּי כַבֵּד אֲכַבֶּדְךָ מְאֹד וְכֹל אֲשֶׁר תֹּאמַר אֵלַי אֶעֱשֶׂה וּלְכָה-נָּא, קָבָה לִּי אֵת הָעָם הַזֶּה וַיַּעַן בִּלְעָם וַיֹּאמֶר אֶל-עַבְדֵי בָלָק, אִם יִתֶּן לִי בָלָק מְלֹא בֵיתוֹ כֶּסֶף וְזָהָב לֹא אוּכַל לַעֲבֹר אֶת פִּי ה' אֱלֹהָי<br /><br />and Yosi ben Kisma's story was<br />אמר רבי יוסי בן קסמא, <br />פעם אחת הייתי מהלך בדרך ופגע בי אדם אחד, ונתן לי שלום, והחזרתי לו שלום. <br />אמר לי: רבי מאיזה מקום אתה <br />אמרתי לו: מעיר גדולה של חכמים ושל סופרים אני <br />אמר לי: רבי רצונך שתדור עמנו במקומנו <br />ואני אתן לך אלף אלפים דנרי זהב ואבנים טובות ומרגליות. <br />אמרתי לו: אם אתה נותן לי כל כסף וזהב ואבנים טובות ומרגליות שבעולם, <br />איני דר אלא במקום תורה. <br />וכן כתוב בספר תהלים על ידי דוד מלך ישראל: "טוב לי תורת פיך מאלפי זהב וכסף". Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-36054989817779521852013-06-24T12:14:04.161-05:002013-06-24T12:14:04.161-05:00Regarding observation no. 3:
I think the answer m...Regarding observation no. 3:<br /><br />I think the answer may lie in a comment of Rav S.R. Hirsch on 22:18. He says that Chazal called Bilam a נפש רחבה because he said that all the gold and silver in the world would not help him succeed, despite the fact that Balak had never mentioned gold and silver, only honor. Yet, in Bilam's mind, honor and money were one and the same.<br /><br />On the other hand, R' Yose ben Kisma was offered an exorbitant sum of money. His refusal to accept such money was a direct response to the offer he received. Perhaps this is why Bilam's declaration reflects poorly on him, but R' Yose ben Kisma's is acceptable.Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-54180941971597846112013-06-21T10:13:00.742-05:002013-06-21T10:13:00.742-05:00I don't think I'll use the Tosfos Yeshanim...I don't think I'll use the Tosfos Yeshanim to explain the last of the Sheva Brachos.<br /><br />Interesting about the Maharal- he answers the obvious question by saying very differently from the Netziv.<br /><br />I don't have a Derech Avos, only the Derech Chaim of the Maharal, and I didn't see him talk about it there.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8955681.post-72256243501418929342013-06-21T02:24:50.320-05:002013-06-21T02:24:50.320-05:00Re: עם vs. את -- I was bothered by these rules onc...Re: עם vs. את -- I was bothered by these rules once, it is hard to apply them consistently. The Netziv you mentioned and הכתב והקבלה here in Balak say that עם is a stronger bond, unity of intent. This is along the path of Sefer Chasidim dictum on בחורים וגם בתולות זקנים עם נערים. <br /><br />Maharal (Derech Avos on the Mishna of R. Yossi ben Kisma) goes in somewhat opposite direction, saying that א עם ב means that א טפל לב (and that's why RYBK did not accept the offer שתגור עמנו במקומנו). However, this echoes RT (but not R. Elchanan) in Tosfos Yeshanim Yoma 85b, and how the Maharsha explains וחי אחיך עמך - חייך קודמין<br /><br />ויקח משה את עצמות יוסף עמו or אם גנב יגנב מעמו - isn't אתו more appropriate according to the Netziv? Yosef indeed said והעליתם את עצמותי מזה אתכם. Moreover, the Meraglim are called והאנשים אשר עמו (referring to Kalev). In Yehoshua, Kalev again refers to them as ואחי אשר עלו עמי These examples work better with the Maharal.<br /><br />By Eliezr we find first ורגלי האנשים אשר אתו and then on their way back והאנשים אשר עמו (here the Netziv approach might say that on the way there, Eliezer wanted to accomplish his mission, while the accompanying people just wanted to get home asap. On the way back, they all just wanted to get home)<br /><br />However, (i) we find that when Yaakov is going to Lavan - וישבת עמו and then later וישב עמו and ויעבד עמו. This seems a problem to both approaches. (ii) Avraham and Lot - וילך אתו לוט and then ולוט עמו הנגבה. Then again וגם ללוט ההולך את אברם and once more - אחרי הפרד לוט מעמו. (iii) In shoftim it says by Avimelech ויעל הוא וכל העם אשר אתו and in the next pasuk ויאמר אל העם אשר עמו, and there are many more such examples. It may be possible to find a local explanation to all of these, but the exceptions seem to overwhelm the rule.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793717193734899866noreply@blogger.com